LTGR #123: “Learning and Marketing – The Convergence”

Susan and Dan are joined by Judy Albers, Learning Technology Strategist at Intrepid Learning, discussing the connection between learning and marketing.


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There is a convergence happening! Judy tells about what she learned from the marketing people and what they’ve learned from her.

The marketing people appreciated what instructional designers knew about how to deliver learning the way people consume it (chunked, recognition of cognitive load, etc.) as well as how to measure learning.

And what she got from the marketing people was “How do you get the learners engaged in the first place?” How do you attract people?

Judy tells a powerful story about shopping for bread. Lesson: Too much of a good thing can make you cry.

If you minimize the actions that people can take at any given moment, they are less likely to abandon the learning and be more satisfied with the experience.

Good assessment can show you the way! It can also be used to direct remediation so you are not wasting the learner’s time (or engagement).

The topic shifts to irrational decision making, and Judy references Dan Ariely. People make decisions with the emotional brain. If we can evoke emotion from the learners, they will learn something. Use pictures, analogies and stories.

On convergence: those who can play in the middle of the venn diagram can do some powerful things!

Judy’s SlideShare link to the presentation that caught Dan’s attention.

Listeners, are you playing in the middle of the venn diagram between learning, marketing and publishers, and how’s that going for you?   You can comment here at or or  Also, if you prefer to use your voice, call us at 1-800-609-9006 x8055 (US and Canada) or 678-255-2174 x8055 (outside US and Canada).

LTGR Ep. #122: “Thanks”

In this episode, Susan and Dan give thanks to people who have shaped how they look at learning and do their craft.


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Dan says thanks to Jim Plueddemann and Nick Shackleton-Jones, while Susan mentions Jonathan Finkelstein and Joan Vandervelde, and the unnamed soul who introduced her to

Here is an example:  What is the LearningTimes Green Room?


LTGR Ep. #121: “Catalysts”

Susan and Dan welcome Deborah Howes, Director of Digital Learning and Randall Packer, artist and educator from the Museum of Modern Art.

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Show Notes:

Deb gives the background regarding online classes and how the museum serves those who cannot come to the site physically.

Randall’s course, Catalysts, is about how artists are catalysts in terms of new ways of making art, and will also examine how MOMA has been a catalyst in terms of supporting and exhibiting new media.

The course contains work that has not been seen previously!  It includes a wealth of archival material often not accessible, even in academia.

Deb shares that it is the first they know of where artists have given permission for their works of arts to be streamed in the classroom. If you want to experience video, sound, and performance art, you have to take class!

Randall describes what will happen with student WordPress sites.

Susan’s ears perked up as she saw how educators who are not necessarily artists might benefit from participation.

The students who complete this course will be earning a digital badge via  and Deb and Susan unpack what that means and what the badge represents.

Dan’s call to action is to sign up for the course!  There are so many layers of how this could inspire any educator or artist to be a catalyst.

Installation view of Doug Aitken: sleepwalkers at the Museum of Modern Art New York, 2007 as seen from the David And Peggy Rockefeller Building.  sleepwalkers was a joint project of Creative Time and The Museum of Modern Art.
Installation view of Doug Aitken: sleepwalkers at the Museum of Modern Art New York, 2007 as seen from the David And Peggy Rockefeller Building. sleepwalkers was a joint project of Creative Time and The Museum of Modern Art.

Digital badges will be awarded for successful course completion using Credly, the universal way to manage credentials and lifelong achievement. MoMA is a Verified Credly Issuer of digital badges.  Listeners, Credly is making 2 scholarships available!  If you are interested, email Susan at

Catalysts: Artists Creating with Sound, Video, and Time
Registration now open, classes begin October 9

This immersive six-week course, taught by media artist and scholar Randall Packer, features avant-garde masterworks in performance, video, and sound by artists such as Marina Abramović, Bruce Nauman, Yoko Ono, Nam June Paik, and Bill Viola, as well as exclusive behind-the-scenes interviews with MoMA curators Paola Antonelli, Klaus Biesenbach, and Barbara London. The course offers a unique opportunity for students to explore how artists, engineers, curators, and even the public have participated in the explosive emergence of new media forms in the past 50 years, and students complete and discuss their own media projects each week. Offered as instructor-led only in fall 2013; digital badges will be awarded for successful course completion.
Enroll today at




LTGR Ep. #120: “Working with SMEs”

Dan and Susan interview Hadiya Nuriddin, instructional designer, on how she works effectively with Subject Matter Experts (SMEs).

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Show Notes:

Hadiya Nuriddin
Hadiya Nuriddin, M.Ed., CPLP, PHR

Hadiya is a SME about SMEs and this episode was recorded as part of a session Dan and Susan presented at the Chicago eLearning and Technology Showcase.

During their time together, Hadiya discussed how she approaches SMEs differently from when she first started in instructional design.  Today, she starts with relationship building.

She shared how she brings out the story by way of that relationship instead of focusing on facts.

Hadiya described her “golden line.”    (Challenge to Hadiya: draw us a picture!)

The trio finally discussed age/experience differences.

Listeners, tell us what strategies you have for working with SMEs!  You can comment here at or email or  Also, if you prefer to use your voice, call us at 1-800-609-9006 x8055 (US and Canada) or 678-255-2174 x8055 (outside US and Canada).


LTGR Ep. #119: “Running with a Metaphor”

Dan and Susan play a game  where they connect running to instructional design.

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Show Notes:

Susan's feet

Listeners might not know that both Susan and Dan are runners and are training for long events.  In this light hearted episode, Dan presents an idea about running and Susan reinterprets this according to instructional design work.

Dan’s running point: Adjust as you go to accommodate for environmental realities.
Susan’s interpretation: Susan relates this to politics or budget cuts, or time shifts.  Flexibility!  And interpersonal skills.

Dan’s running point: It’s 75% mental and 25% physical.
Susan’s interpretation: Instructional design is 75% on paper – the thinking and conceiving and only 25% using the tools and building.

Dan’s running point: Strength comes with time spent in a somewhat repetitive action.
Susan’s interpretation: Writing instructional objectives!

Dan’s running point: Hard focused effort often leads to a runner’s high.
Susan’s interpretation: Success feels good.

Dan’s running point: Running with others makes the journey easier, but often you are on your own.
Susan’s interpretation: Working with a team.

Dan’s running point: Convincing others that it is worthwhile and fun is almost impossible.
Susan’s interpretation: A designer might ask for something different or suggest a new pedagogy…you become a change agent and outsiders might not get it.

Dan’s running point: Some days it’s just about making it home.
Susan’s interpretation: You can’t win an award for every design.

Dan’s running point: Every goal reached is the basis for another higher goal.
Susan’s interpretation: Every design builds your portfolio and experience base.  Plus you see new opportunities.

Dan’s running point: Rest is necessary for growth.
Susan’s interpretation: Some days you have to put the project aside to gain a fresh perspective.

Listeners, tell us what races you are preparing for!

You can comment here at or email or  Also, if you prefer to use your voice, call us at 1-800-609-9006 x8055 (US and Canada) or 678-255-2174 x8055 (outside US and Canada).


LTGR Ep. #118: “Chunking”

In this episode, Susan and Dan go back to the basics with the topic of chunking content.

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800px-Cuboro0001Show Notes:

Susan doesn’t understand why people are just now catching on that chunking is important–breaking things into bite-size pieces helps with learning.

Dan reminds us that accelerated learning theory shows there is an optimal attention span for adults (15 to 20 min.) and the importance of giving participants a mental breather.

Susan explains an instructional activity her students are currently doing, based on Robin Smith’s Conquering the Content book. Here is a link to the form she discusses. Susan explains this as “gluing the pieces together.”

Dan asks Susan about the difference between a transition in bridge, but Susan got it wrong if you check the form. Either way, this is a manner of writing the narrative to hold everything together.

Dan elaborates on a recent project and how he chunked content. In his case it had to do with the end-user role as defined by the objective. This becomes a  comparison of what happens when you’re working with self-paced learning versus a whole course.

What is the shortest amount of time the user can spend with content and still learn something?

Together they think through the idea of associating different pieces of content to one another, particularly when offering self-directed learning.

The nuggets to take away from this episode: get your content into bite-size pieces and keep in mind what Dan calls the “youtube effect” where audiences have come to expect to inexact with content in small pieces.

Listeners, how do you chunk your content?

You can comment here at or email or  Also, if you prefer to use your voice, call us at 1-800-609-9006 x8055 (US and Canada) or 678-255-2174 x8055 (outside US and Canada).


LTGR Ep. #117: “What’s New in Online Learning: The Future (or not)?”

What’s new in online learning? What’s the future hold? Is this the future?

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Show Notes:

Susan and Dan reflect on changes in online education they’ve witnessed in the past 10 years. Among the note-worthy: Easier use of tools, knowing more about how students engage in content, better at training.

Or are we? Susan found an article in the Journal of Online Teaching and Learning from Merlot

Faculty-Perceived Barriers to Online Education

We have the same barriers!?

  • Fear of additional time commitment
  • Lack of personal relationships with students
  • Having technology fail
  • Compensation issues

Dan reminds her they are perceived barriers – perhaps from those who were not yet teaching online.

Those with experience were less likely to mention these factors as perceived barriers.

Faculty who were older tended to be less optimistic about overcoming those barriers.

“…approximately 19% of all institutions do not offer any training for teaching online courses, and of those that do offer it, most provide informal and internally run programs (65%), with only a small percentage
offering programs run by external agencies (15%) …”

But distance education programs are pervasive! Does this perpetuate shovel ware?

Dan’s take away: Those who are doing it are finding the support they need, but those who aren’t are finding it difficult to make the leap. Opportunities for taking the first safe step are limited.

Someone asked about the Online Education for Dummies book thinking it was for faculty, but Susan explained it was written for students. Maybe Susan needs to rethink that.

Another article having to do with students and their challenges.  Students sill need info about how tech works, what procedures to follow, how to participate, etc. Those areas need to be addressed before you get to content.

“The gap is greater than we assumed.”

Dan found an interesting info graphic – the future of educational technology at

Divided 3 environments where we experience tech : classroom, studio and virtual. From there what are the core uses of technology and how will that change? Moves from uni-directional to trends projected: more about how we will learn from 1:1 to learning all the time and everywhere because technology will constantly update and provide information.

Susan – looking forward to 2020 – didn’t care for disintermediation because she doesn’t think we can replace teachers with AI. She wants to hold on to there personalization. She wants the high touch that goes with high tech.

Listeners, what do you think the future will hold? What changes have you already observed?

You can comment here at or email or  Also, if you prefer to use your voice, call us at 1-800-609-9006 x8055 (US and Canada) or 678-255-2174 x8055 (outside US and Canada).


LTGR Ep. #116: “End Users and Learner Analysis”

Dan is challenged by getting useful end user data when he doesn’t have time or resources to do a thorough learner analysis. He brings the problem to the Green Room.

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Show Notes:

What do you do when you don’t have the time or resources to conduct a thorough learner analysis before the instructional design process kicks into full gear? Or when someone higher up believes they know the learner.

Dan lays out a real work problem he is wrestling with. Susan observes he is working toward identifying gaps, which is a way to hook into what people care about.

Reality check: What happens if you find the learner needs are taking you in a completely different direction than you had anticipated? A political question!

To create the space and time to talk to end users is a challenge.

In traditional education we do less learner analysis, but we should. Instead, we assume the teacher will modify.

A facilitator should be a listener, but that is easier said than done.

Susan hopes her students are hearing that instructional design is different in a corporate setting. They’re hearing some of the realities.

Listeners, what kind of insight do you have about your learners and how did you get it?

You can comment here at or email or  Also, if you prefer to use your voice, call us at 1-800-609-9006 x8055 (US and Canada) or 678-255-2174 x8055 (outside US and Canada).


The LT Green Room is a podcast for Renewal, Retooling and Conversations about Learning. It is co-hosted by Susan Manning and Dan Balzer and its show topics are often drawn from members of, a free online community of education and training professionals from across the globe. The LT Green Room gives listeners (and ourselves) an opportunity to reflect on what they're doing behind the scene that results in an effective learning experience.